Curse

Life Bringing · Aug 09, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Frankly, one of the things I don't like about discord in general is that it lacks a knocklock. YMLaD is hardly a knocklock. It's a single KD. And EVAS knocks down the target with iron palm anyway. So what does YMLaD really add? I find PI more useful, and you only get three PvE-only skills.

Actually, YMLaD+EVAS makes a pretty nice knocklock. I don't get why you would use YMLAD when the target is already knocked down...that would ruin the knocklock.

Quote:

How does AP/YMLaD apply conditions faster than mark of pain/enfeebling blood? The first takes 2 3/4 seconds (since the crippled condition doesn't take effect until after the target gets back up). The second takes 2 seconds of casting time and an aftercast delay of 3/4 second in between. Isn't that identical?

1.The skill description is incorrect.
2.urbaed.
AP+YMLaD only take 3/4 of a second to prep, because YMLaD is instant and the cripple takes effect immediately, regardless of what the skill says, and AP is only a 3/4 second cast. MoP(1)+aftercast(.75)+Enfeebling(1) is 2.75. Thats a 2 second difference. That was an epic display of fail btw

Paul Dawg · Aug 09, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Actually, YMLaD+EVAS makes a pretty nice knocklock. I don't get why you would use YMLAD when the target is already knocked down...that would ruin the knocklock.

You're not understanding, are you. I'm not using YMLaD when the target is already knocked down. That's the point!

Quote:

1.The skill description is incorrect.
2.urbaed.
AP+YMLaD only take 3/4 of a second to prep, because YMLaD is instant and the cripple takes effect immediately, regardless of what the skill says, and AP is only a 3/4 second cast. MoP(1)+aftercast(.75)+Enfeebling(1) is 2.75. Thats a 2 second difference.

Hmm, you're right, the skill description is incorrect. Then it does make a difference. I'll experiment with it.

Edited to add: I still don't think AP can be your opening hex, because the foe doesn't always die in time. Yeah, I know, USUALLY it works, but when it doesn't, you may as well stand up and get a cup of coffee while you're waiting for all your skills to recharge.

Also, don't forget that enfeebling blood is an AoE spell (and a useful one at that), so you're not always going to have to reapply it.

Quote:

That was an epic display of fail btw

What the hell?

Carnivorous Cupcake · Aug 09, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Life is correct to be quite honest.

Paul Dawg · Aug 09, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

He's correct that YMLaD causes cripple immediately. I said so. The rest...whatever. Discord people always say "Just cast AP-YMLaD-Finish Him and the target should be dead!" It's not true.

Life Bringing · Aug 09, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

He's correct that YMLaD causes cripple immediately. I said so. The rest...whatever. Discord people always say "Just cast AP-YMLaD-Finish Him and the target should be dead!" It's not true.

Depends how you run your discordway. If you're microing discord on your spikes, then yes, the target will die. Oh, needs an EVAS in there and then it'll die lol

AtomicMew · Aug 09, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

He's correct that YMLaD causes cripple immediately. I said so. The rest...whatever. Discord people always say "Just cast AP-YMLaD-Finish Him and the target should be dead!" It's not true.

You were also wrong about YMLAD + EVAS. It IS knocklock for 4 seconds, if you time it right. Tbh, I don't have the timing down, but the possibility is there. You need to YMLAD about 0.25 seconds before EVAS.

Voodoo Rage · Aug 09, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Instead of the standard AP caller, I've been running this build (someone around here recommended it and it's really nice), Necro/Mesmer:

[Fevered Dreams] - Spreads conditions and adds daze to foes in the area
[Cry of Pain]
[YMLAD!] - 1st condition, cripple (and the knockdown)
[Enfeeble] - 2nd condition, weakness (and now 3 seconds of Daze is added)
[Signet of Lost Souls] - I personally like the extra energy will all the skills I am spamming
[Rip Enchantment] - adds another bleeding condition if applicable
[Finish Him!] - 2 more conditions, more daze
[Optional Hex Skill] - I like Mark of Pain or Barbs depending on where I am

That mob gets seriously shut down with this build.

Paul Dawg · Aug 10, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You were also wrong about YMLAD + EVAS. It IS knocklock for 4 seconds, if you time it right. Tbh, I don't have the timing down, but the possibility is there. You need to YMLAD about 0.25 seconds before EVAS.

You can't "time it right." The pocket sin is on his own as soon as you summon him. Sure, sometimes he'll get in his KD right after the KD from YMLaD expires. And other times he won't.

Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of the discord people constantly saying essentially "Oh it's so simple you do these three skills and all these remarkable things happen immediately and reliably." As I've said repeatedly already, it doesn't always work, and when it doesn't work, the caller has a gimped bar. (Edited to add: That's why I think the caller's bar needs Plans B & C worked into it, and that's what I was trying to do with the bar I posted--instead of banking absolutely everything on AP-YMLaD-Finish Him and twiddling your thumbs when the target doesn't immediately go down.)

Guys, it's not as though I suck at the game or that discord is the only way to win in PvE. I have hero-henched every single zone in the game in HM. (Only exceptions are zones that cannot be hero-henched, like DoA, Urgoz, etc.) Yes, that includes places like Vloxen HM and Duncan. And I did it all without ever touching discord. I've only started to look at discord recently since everyone raves about it--and I gotta say it's currently the most overrated hero team out there.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

You can't "time it right." The pocket sin is on his own as soon as you summon him. Sure, sometimes he'll get in his KD right after the KD from YMLaD expires. And other times he won't.

Actually, the ebon sin will use iron palm immediately after being cast. The only randomness is that once in a while, the sin won't target your target.

Quote:

Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of the discord people constantly saying essentially "Oh it's so simple you do these three skills and all these remarkable things happen immediately and reliably." As I've said repeatedly already, it doesn't always work, and when it doesn't work, the caller has a gimped bar. (Edited to add: That's why I think the caller's bar needs Plans B & C worked into it, and that's what I was trying to do with the bar I posted--instead of banking absolutely everything on AP-YMLaD-Finish Him and twiddling your thumbs when the target doesn't immediately go down.)

So, my n/a discord caller looks like this:
Assassin's Promise
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Signet of Deadly Corruption
"Finish Him!"
Mark of Pain
Barbs
Enfeebling Blood

That bar gives you adequate backups if AP gets stripped(use a 40/40 curses set). Basically, to make a discord team work best, lots of spamming and sometimes microing is needed. I have a micro in my mouse that micros discord on my three heroes if i decide that the target isn't dying fast enough, or i need a priority target spiked down. If you know hex removals are going to be present, sometimes baiting them out with MoP is needed.

Paul Dawg · Aug 10, 2009, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Welllllll...

That's actually a pretty similar bar. So what were we even disagreeing about? I will fiddle with YMLaD instead of PI (at which point our bars will be virtually identical).

And the pocket sin does not reliably attack the guy you want him to attack. Sometimes he wanders around.

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

EVAS almost always attacks your target and uses iron palm immediately. I know this because I can see the yellow numbers

.

Having shown that you don't know how YMLAD works, that kind of shows inexperience. I'm not saying I'm an amazing-never-fail player or even that I'm better than you, it's just that I realize the potential of an AP caller, whereas you only seem to take from experience.

When AP gets removed or times out, the truth is, 99% of the time your fault. You can always cast barbs first or cover with MoP or cast AP right before FH!

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Depends how you run your discordway. If you're microing discord on your spikes, then yes, the target will die. Oh, needs an EVAS in there and then it'll die lol

Not necessarily. If the target receives a strong prot, e.g. Spirit Bond, it's certainly possible he doesn't die.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Not necessarily. If the target receives a strong prot, e.g. Spirit Bond, it's certainly possible he doesn't die.

When was the last time you saw either of those in pve?

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Since forever. Spirit Bond - and Shield of Regen - is so common in the areas I play, I can't travel without Rend Enchantments. There are a variety of other defensive skills as well, for example, Shield of Absorption / Shielding Hands, Kinetic Armor, Stoneflesh Aura ...

Paul Dawg · Aug 10, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

When AP gets removed or times out, the truth is, 99% of the time your fault. You can always cast barbs first or cover with MoP or cast AP right before FH!

All you're saying here is exactly what I've been saying all along: that AP should not be your opening hex.

You really seem to enjoy arguing with me, and it's getting tiresome.

Edited to add: I'm also very surprised to see people like Life Bringer acting as though they've never seen a target being protted and healed. Where are you guys using your discord teams? Vanqing in Istan? In difficult areas where good players like to play, mobs with multiple casters that prot and heal are pretty common.

syphonus · Aug 10, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

So, my n/a discord caller looks like this:
Assassin's Promise
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
Signet of Deadly Corruption
"Finish Him!"
Mark of Pain
Barbs
Enfeebling Blood

Mark of Pain and Barbs make bad cover hexes, IMO. The only damage coming from them will be minion attacks, and if they get removed you have a long recharge and a 2sec cast hex to work with. Parasitic Bond is fast enough that even the strongest hex removal won't keep you from slapping it right back on them-- and when it's removed, you gain ~100 health.

Paul Dawg · Aug 10, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

The idea of mark of pain is that EVAS will start whaling on the target. And if you're going to have mark of pain at all, it has to be on the caller's bar (because of the long recharge).

I don't know why he has barbs and think it's a waste of space. THAT'S a skill that heroes use well.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Edited to add: I'm also very surprised to see people like Life Bringer acting as though they've never seen a target being protted and healed. Where are you guys using your discord teams? Vanqing in Istan? In difficult areas where good players like to play, mobs with multiple casters that prot and heal are pretty common.

It's fairly difficult for somethign to be protted when you kill the prot first...

Quote:

Spirit Bond - and Shield of Regen - is so common in the areas I play, I can't travel without Rend Enchantments. There are a variety of other defensive skills as well, for example, Shield of Absorption / Shielding Hands, Kinetic Armor, Stoneflesh Aura ...

The only skills that really pose a problem are spirit bond and stoneflesh, neither of which is that big of a deal. Shield of regen and kinetic both only affect armor affected damage. Shielding hands and SoA don't prot the damage fast enough for discord to nto make them explode. Stoneflesh can be moderately annoying, but YMLaD on the 2 second cast is easy enough, even in HM. Your best best on spirit bond is to quarterknock the monk that has it with YMLaD-->EVAS.

Quote:

Mark of Pain and Barbs make bad cover hexes, IMO. The only damage coming from them will be minion attacks, and if they get removed you have a long recharge and a 2sec cast hex to work with. Parasitic Bond is fast enough that even the strongest hex removal won't keep you from slapping it right back on them-- and when it's removed, you gain ~100 health.

I ran Parasitic for a while, but then realized that if i brought MoP and barbs, i could drop a full curses hero and instead bring 2 hybrid healers, one with SoF and enfeebling, the other with Shambling and Putrid Bile. Basically makes it so i dont have to be quite as careful about overagroing.

Jeydra · Aug 11, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

It's fairly difficult for somethign to be protted when you kill the prot first...

He can prot himself, and / or get healed from the healer, and / or be so far back in the mob that pushing to kill him is dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The only skills that really pose a problem are spirit bond and stoneflesh, neither of which is that big of a deal. Shield of regen and kinetic both only affect armor affected damage. Shielding hands and SoA don't prot the damage fast enough for discord to nto make them explode. Stoneflesh can be moderately annoying, but YMLaD on the 2 second cast is easy enough, even in HM. Your best best on spirit bond is to quarterknock the monk that has it with YMLaD-->EVAS.

You have to play more against Shield of Regen then. Discord might deal a lot of damage, but 3x Discord + YMLAD! still might not be enough to take down someone who's also getting healed. Casting Discord is an investment as well; you might need the healing. It is my experience that if you can land Finish Him!, the target usually dies. If you can't land Finish Him!, then there's every chance you've missed AP.

If you are so certain Discord spikes > everything else, I'd welcome a screenshot of you doing the first Stone Summit mob in Duncan HM using Discordway, before they pressure you out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Mark of Pain and Barbs make bad cover hexes, IMO. The only damage coming from them will be minion attacks, and if they get removed you have a long recharge and a 2sec cast hex to work with. Parasitic Bond is fast enough that even the strongest hex removal won't keep you from slapping it right back on them-- and when it's removed, you gain ~100 health.

When Smite Hex comes in multiple copies, or when monsters have Divert Hexes / Convert Hexes or Expel Hexes, Parasitic Bond is of no help. Personally, I think one should cast AP only when he is reasonably certain the target will die almost at once (or when the mob has no hex removal).

AtomicMew · Aug 11, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

All you're saying here is exactly what I've been saying all along: that AP should not be your opening hex.

You really seem to enjoy arguing with me, and it's getting tiresome.

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile. At least in this thread, I'm simply correcting something you said which was wrong: yes it is certainly possible to knocklock with an AP caller.

Edit: also AP can USUALLY be your opening hex. Almost always. You also have the possibility of micro-ing PB on the hero.

Quote:

Edited to add: I'm also very surprised to see people like Life Bringer acting as though they've never seen a target being protted and healed. Where are you guys using your discord teams? Vanqing in Istan? In difficult areas where good players like to play, mobs with multiple casters that prot and heal are pretty common.

Bolded part, UPS. Good players VQ an area once and then never visit it again (unless it's for farm or something.) Same with dungeons.